This, I think, is one reason history's work is never done. We valorize certain eras and people for contingent and often arbitrary reasons we inherit, but the truth, as HWB reminds us, is usually more complex. Should we admire the Achaeans or the Trojans (with or without gifts)? The Athenians or the Spartans? Rome or Carthage? Was Alexander right to attack Persia, or were the Persians more civilized than he? In their own time, it would depend who you asked. Would we better off reading Confucius or Aristotle? The more we learn, the grayer the shades will get. And that's OK.
I was subjected to the same required Latin classes at same prep school as HW during the same period. My father was upset about the requirement to take required Latin classes (although, I have to admit, having a background in Latin came in handy later while studying medicine). As a recruiter for the CIA, he knew the value of a strong background in modern foreign languages. He was so incensed over the forced Latin classes that he actively considered transferring me to my local public high school, Woodrow Wilson. It’s not called that anymore but that’s a story for a different day.
Learning any of the romance languages is easier if previously one has studied Latin. Four years of high school Spanish would not result in being able to converse fluently; achieving that would require a further year or two of immersion in a Spanish speaking community.
By the time I got to JHS, Latin wasn't offered. In hindsight, I wish it had been, even though I don't think I would have chosen it as a student.
Isn't the canon there to provide Western culture and education with a baseline of knowledge and tradition? How it is approached and taught is an entirely different matter that may be the bigger issue.
I too was in the Latin “club” for 3 years but it was chosen not mandatory. My father, a doctor, had had Latin in high school and it was supposed to be helpful in medicine. I thought at the time that’s where I was headed, and so followed in his footsteps. I ended up as a nurse where Latin was only peripherally helpful. A chance to study Black History, had it ever been offered in the 50’s of Brooklyn, NY, would have been much more valuable in making me a literate person.
And if you want to learn philosophy you need to learn Plato, Socrates and Aristotle. Homer is useful in understanding the cultural background of the greats of philosophy.
Newton wrote his groundbreaking physics treatise in Latin so we do have examples of non Romans using the language recently. If you call Newton recent. But I think that a legendary poet like Homer is an inspiration for writers . Heck the creator of the Simpsons named his protagonist Homer 😎
I will also gladly take a crap on Homer from a great height, despite reading him in the original. I personally derived great joy from reading Greek. But it was an indulgent investment of time, money, and intellectual effort and I would never advise someone who is looking to build a career for themselves to do this. If you're one of the roughly 3% of people who can both start learning Greek and continue on to master the language and climb the greasy pole of academe to a full professorship then it's awesome and you've got it made. You can indulge your passion for poring over ancient texts as much as you want, if the greasy pole hasn't killed the joy. But the other 97% of folks will be doing something else for a living that almost certainly does not require them to crack open their dusty old LSJ.
We should have a broader and more productive conversation on this topic that goes beyond Homer good or bad and looks at the trade offs of reading classics but not Shakespeare or China's Four Masterworks so students can learn something substantial about an important global literary tradition but also study things like economics so somebody will employ them.
I really liked the translation of The Iliad translated by classicist Robert Fagles. The book was published by Hackett Classics and the cover is a photo from inside a landing craft on D-Day with soldiers ahead wading ashore.
I haven't yet been able to, but plan to, watch "The Return" directed by Uberto Pasolini and starring Ralph Fiennes and Juliette Binoche. The film is a retelling of the last sections of Homer's Odyssey. Skips right to his return home passing the giant and sirens and such.
As a music teaching major in college, German was the language for musicology. I had two years in high school (and a semester of French) but only used it briefly (and poorly) a couple times. Once when the Dresden Symphony came to Kalamazoo - our french horn instructor knew the horn players so we took them out for beers. Then in 2000 on two trips to Graz Austria for work. But having worked in manufacturing now for 30 years with lots of trips to Mexico and large hispanic populations in the USA, hindsight says spanish should have been chosen.
Ironically, my wife is half mexican and her entire hispanic family on her mothers side in Colorado are bil-lingual but Joni's mother didn't teach her kids spanish in Muskegon Michigan, assessing that that would entail prejudice from the local gringos so my wife knows less spanish than i acquired from my trips to mexico.
I do think there is a value to having a canon. But it should no longer be a static one, given the globalization. Surely there's some works to be added from Africa and Asia? I would suggest that the Art of War by Sun Tzu should be part of canon perhaps. Also the Tale of Genji from Japan- a Japanese classic.
This, I think, is one reason history's work is never done. We valorize certain eras and people for contingent and often arbitrary reasons we inherit, but the truth, as HWB reminds us, is usually more complex. Should we admire the Achaeans or the Trojans (with or without gifts)? The Athenians or the Spartans? Rome or Carthage? Was Alexander right to attack Persia, or were the Persians more civilized than he? In their own time, it would depend who you asked. Would we better off reading Confucius or Aristotle? The more we learn, the grayer the shades will get. And that's OK.
I was subjected to the same required Latin classes at same prep school as HW during the same period. My father was upset about the requirement to take required Latin classes (although, I have to admit, having a background in Latin came in handy later while studying medicine). As a recruiter for the CIA, he knew the value of a strong background in modern foreign languages. He was so incensed over the forced Latin classes that he actively considered transferring me to my local public high school, Woodrow Wilson. It’s not called that anymore but that’s a story for a different day.
Great quote. Never took Latin, only Spanish...but my mother majored in Latin. I can correct grammar while sleeping 😴.
Learning any of the romance languages is easier if previously one has studied Latin. Four years of high school Spanish would not result in being able to converse fluently; achieving that would require a further year or two of immersion in a Spanish speaking community.
By the time I got to JHS, Latin wasn't offered. In hindsight, I wish it had been, even though I don't think I would have chosen it as a student.
Isn't the canon there to provide Western culture and education with a baseline of knowledge and tradition? How it is approached and taught is an entirely different matter that may be the bigger issue.
I too was in the Latin “club” for 3 years but it was chosen not mandatory. My father, a doctor, had had Latin in high school and it was supposed to be helpful in medicine. I thought at the time that’s where I was headed, and so followed in his footsteps. I ended up as a nurse where Latin was only peripherally helpful. A chance to study Black History, had it ever been offered in the 50’s of Brooklyn, NY, would have been much more valuable in making me a literate person.
And if you want to learn philosophy you need to learn Plato, Socrates and Aristotle. Homer is useful in understanding the cultural background of the greats of philosophy.
Newton wrote his groundbreaking physics treatise in Latin so we do have examples of non Romans using the language recently. If you call Newton recent. But I think that a legendary poet like Homer is an inspiration for writers . Heck the creator of the Simpsons named his protagonist Homer 😎
I’m sorry, but you sir, are wrong.
I will also gladly take a crap on Homer from a great height, despite reading him in the original. I personally derived great joy from reading Greek. But it was an indulgent investment of time, money, and intellectual effort and I would never advise someone who is looking to build a career for themselves to do this. If you're one of the roughly 3% of people who can both start learning Greek and continue on to master the language and climb the greasy pole of academe to a full professorship then it's awesome and you've got it made. You can indulge your passion for poring over ancient texts as much as you want, if the greasy pole hasn't killed the joy. But the other 97% of folks will be doing something else for a living that almost certainly does not require them to crack open their dusty old LSJ.
We should have a broader and more productive conversation on this topic that goes beyond Homer good or bad and looks at the trade offs of reading classics but not Shakespeare or China's Four Masterworks so students can learn something substantial about an important global literary tradition but also study things like economics so somebody will employ them.
I really liked the translation of The Iliad translated by classicist Robert Fagles. The book was published by Hackett Classics and the cover is a photo from inside a landing craft on D-Day with soldiers ahead wading ashore.
I haven't yet been able to, but plan to, watch "The Return" directed by Uberto Pasolini and starring Ralph Fiennes and Juliette Binoche. The film is a retelling of the last sections of Homer's Odyssey. Skips right to his return home passing the giant and sirens and such.
As a music teaching major in college, German was the language for musicology. I had two years in high school (and a semester of French) but only used it briefly (and poorly) a couple times. Once when the Dresden Symphony came to Kalamazoo - our french horn instructor knew the horn players so we took them out for beers. Then in 2000 on two trips to Graz Austria for work. But having worked in manufacturing now for 30 years with lots of trips to Mexico and large hispanic populations in the USA, hindsight says spanish should have been chosen.
Ironically, my wife is half mexican and her entire hispanic family on her mothers side in Colorado are bil-lingual but Joni's mother didn't teach her kids spanish in Muskegon Michigan, assessing that that would entail prejudice from the local gringos so my wife knows less spanish than i acquired from my trips to mexico.
I do think there is a value to having a canon. But it should no longer be a static one, given the globalization. Surely there's some works to be added from Africa and Asia? I would suggest that the Art of War by Sun Tzu should be part of canon perhaps. Also the Tale of Genji from Japan- a Japanese classic.